Pondering wars... Mycenae was in ruins within 50 years of the Myceneans destroying Troy. So what was the point? Honor? Plunder?Helen? And Homer (or some other Greek) was living among the descendants of the Trojans when the Iliad was recorded 400 years later. WWI was about whose empire would control more, and the punitive damages on Germany were such that peace with Germany never had a chance. (This is also, to my mind, when the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians begins.) Meanwhile USA fought communism in Vietnam for 20 years and now is the biggest importer of Vietnamese products. All of this tells me we are remarkably bad at taking the long view.
I have been thinking about this discussion for some time. I would like to comment in hopes of continuing exploration.
Israel is not the only country that has been subject of terrorist attack. The US has too. I would like to offer a comparison of both attack and response.
On September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks killed nearly 3,000 people and injured more than 6,000 others in the United States. A terrible thing. But no hostages were taken and no one was raped; no American was tortured.
The United States responded to this attack with the declaration of War on Terrorism. The USA launched military engagements in both Afghanistan and Iraq. More than 177,000 uniformed Afghans, Pakistanis, and Iraqis died in the war along with some Syrian allies. Also 46,319 civilians were killed...
more than 15 times the number of civilians killed in the terrorist attacks on 9/11.
On October 7, 2023,Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups carried out numerous
coordinated attacks in Israel, including residential communities, social events and on Israeli military bases in the area of southern Israel (bordering the Gaza Strip). Some 1200 persons were
killed. Given that Israel is about 448 times smaller than United States this was, percentage wise, a much larger attack. In addition 240 persons were taken hostage of whom 65 have reportedly been killed in captivity. The UN has reported that the hostages have been subject to both rape and torture.
The day was labeled the bloodiest in Israel's history and the deadliest for Jews since the Holocaust. At least 44 countries denounced the attack by Hamas and described it as terrorism. Some have called the attack a genocidal massacre against Israelis.
Response. The United States' response to Al Queda attack on 9/11 was to declare war on Afghanistan, a country. Israeli declared war on on Hamas, a terrorist group, not on Palestine, a country. But Hamas was in Palestine, They had ensconced themselves in tunnels under lands inhabited by Palestinians. So as the Taliban terrorists being in Afghanistan led to the Afghanistan War. Hamas being in Gaza led to Israel invasion of Gaza....though unlike the US declaring war on Afghanistan, Israel did not declare
war on Palestine...only on Hamas who is using Palestine as its base....having dug camps under the streets of Palestinian cities.
However the people of Palestine ARE suffering the consequences of war since Hamas is using the country as a military base.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has repeatedly stated that Israel seeks “total victory” over Hamas, including by destroying Hamas's military and governing capabilities in Gaza and recovering all hostages.
OK. That is a summary what happened. What I do NOT understand is the response of so
many Americans who criticize Israel's response of with war against Hamas in Palestine, when the United States waged war against Afghanistan in response to Taliban attacks on the USA....especially since unlike Hamas, the Taliban took no hostages and neither raped or tortured any American.
Yes, in both wars, civilians have been killed and homes have been destroyed. But how can some say that the US was justified in its war in Afghanistan but Israel is not justified by its war in Palestine?
If anyone, can explain it to me, I would be grateful.
I don't know, because I justify neither. I don't know anyone personally who justifies the US response to 9/11, although I know some do. They're probably the same people who justify everything Israel does.
BTW, do you know that the US is supplying virtually all of Israel's weapons. That that's the major reason for the protests across the United States? (No one is protesting what's happening in Sudan.) In criticizing Israel, we are criticizing our own government's complicity. That complicity may cost Harris the election.
A long time since I have been back to this tread. I have thought about your comments and to be honest I think that if the US and others do nothing to support Israel, that nation (Israel) will be wiped from the global map. ..... Should that happen?
If we look at the history of creating modern Israel, it become clear that the US and others bear real responsibility for the situation of the Palestinians....but I see no move by the US or others that either accepts that responsibility or tries to resolve the situation caused by the creation of modern Israel as a state after WWII.. ,,,, How do we bear responsibility? As you know the US showed little help for the Jews trying to flee Hitler. We simply refused to take Jews who were fleeing the Nazis. eg. a large group of Jews got an ocean worthy ship and sailed to the US seeking asylum, safety. The US would not allow them to land. Rejected they tried elsewhere....I think Cuba but they were also rejected . Being unable to land, the ship returned to Europe and all aboard were sent to detention camps and killed. .......................... If we rejected Jews trying to flee annihilation of course we would not welcome those who survived after the war was over. . Not sure if you recall *I think you are younger than I) But after the war and the opening of the camps, where most inmates were Jews, the question was what to do with these Jews. The European did not want them to come back to their land or businesses. After all when the Jews were removed, Europeans took over those properties and businesses. These new owners did not want to give them back when the war was over. .......... I believe that the US did take about 150,000 but there were around 3.5 million Jewish survivors at the end World War II ( out of a pre-war European Jewish population of approximately 9.5 million). What to do with these Jews? .......
Now Britain controlled Palestine (colonial) and after the war the Brits proposed solution was to give the Jews their own state. " The UN partition plan
On November 29, 1947, the UN voted for Resolution 181, which called for the creation of a Jewish state and an Arab state in the British Mandate of Palestine. The Jewish state was to receive 56% of the land, including the Negev Desert, the Sharon Plain, the Jezreel Valley, and the upper Jordan Valley." Jerusalem, a holy site to many was divided. " Jerusalem was split between Israel and Jordan after the war, with Israel controlling West Jerusalem and Jordan controlling East Jerusalem along with the Old City. .......
"The British Mandate over Palestine was to end and the two new States (one Arab, one Jewish) were to achieve independence on 15 May 1948.
The partition resolution provided for elaborate safeguards for the rights of minorities and for the “existing rights” of various religions in Jerusalem which had been secured during the Ottoman period. Included was the guarantee of free access for persons of all faiths to the holy places located in Jerusalem. These safeguards were required to be given constitutional status by each State.
Although the size of the Jewish State accorded in the partition resolution was smaller than the Zionist Organization had hoped for, the Organization had secured its objective of a Jewish State in Palestine. Hence, the Zionist Organization accepted the partition plan. The Palestinian Arabs and the other Arab countries rejected the resolution as unjust and illegal.
The violence, which had not subsided while the United Nations debated the Palestine issue, now flared up again. The violence intensified when the British forces first prepared to withdraw, and then when they advanced their withdrawal date to 15 May 1948."
Some say that the Jewish people's historical persecution and the Holocaust made it a historic necessity to create a Jewish state. The Jewish leadership reluctantly accepted the plan. .........
The Palestinian Arabs and surrounding Arab states rejected the plan, considering it an international betrayal. The Arabs launched a war of annihilation against the Jewish state. (The Arab-Israeli War of 1948 broke out when five Arab nations invaded territory in the former Palestinian mandate immediately following the announcement of the independence of the state of Israel on May 14, 1948.) .......... The USA. United States supported the creation of Israel in 1948. President Harry S. Truman was the first world leader to officially recognize Israel as a Jewish state on May 14, 1948." Now we knew that Palestinians were living on some of the land but that did not seem to matter. It was decided. .......... Of course we and everyone recognized that several groups viewed Jerusalem as special and no one wanted a fight. So it was decided to divide Jerusalem. "Jerusalem was split between Israel and Jordan after the war, with Israel controlling West Jerusalem and Jordan controlling East Jerusalem along with the Old City." ............ Then "In 1950, Jordan annexed East Jerusalem as part of its larger annexation of the West Bank. Israel occupied East Jerusalem during the 1967 Six-Day War; since then, the entire city has been under Israeli control. In Israel, the reunification of Jerusalem is commemorated as Jerusalem Day, an annual holiday." So that is the history. And when I think about it, it seems that the present issues of Palestinians was created by the UN.....not by Israel. And yes, a lot of water has flowed under the bridge since 1948....The rise of Arab nationalism with the prominence given by the oil economy has changed the politics of the region. Israel, the Jewish state, has become vehement and motivated by 'never again' ,,,,, But it remains " it remains a fact that the UN created Israel...." and it seems to me that in doing so the UN, not Israel, created the current problems, It also seems to me that the UN wants to wash its hands of the problems it created and that many citizens of countries that helped create the problem in the first place now want to wash their hands of responsibility and even blame Israel for the all the current problems. I, for one, do not think it is fair. And I wait for the UN to step up, bring all parties involved together and work out a solution that both acknowledges historical facts and presents an equitable plan for moving forward in peace. Thanks for reading and participating in this dialogue.
Pondering wars... Mycenae was in ruins within 50 years of the Myceneans destroying Troy. So what was the point? Honor? Plunder?Helen? And Homer (or some other Greek) was living among the descendants of the Trojans when the Iliad was recorded 400 years later. WWI was about whose empire would control more, and the punitive damages on Germany were such that peace with Germany never had a chance. (This is also, to my mind, when the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians begins.) Meanwhile USA fought communism in Vietnam for 20 years and now is the biggest importer of Vietnamese products. All of this tells me we are remarkably bad at taking the long view.
I think our tendency to takes sides gets in the way of peace and justice.
I have been thinking about this discussion for some time. I would like to comment in hopes of continuing exploration.
Israel is not the only country that has been subject of terrorist attack. The US has too. I would like to offer a comparison of both attack and response.
On September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks killed nearly 3,000 people and injured more than 6,000 others in the United States. A terrible thing. But no hostages were taken and no one was raped; no American was tortured.
The United States responded to this attack with the declaration of War on Terrorism. The USA launched military engagements in both Afghanistan and Iraq. More than 177,000 uniformed Afghans, Pakistanis, and Iraqis died in the war along with some Syrian allies. Also 46,319 civilians were killed...
more than 15 times the number of civilians killed in the terrorist attacks on 9/11.
On October 7, 2023,Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups carried out numerous
coordinated attacks in Israel, including residential communities, social events and on Israeli military bases in the area of southern Israel (bordering the Gaza Strip). Some 1200 persons were
killed. Given that Israel is about 448 times smaller than United States this was, percentage wise, a much larger attack. In addition 240 persons were taken hostage of whom 65 have reportedly been killed in captivity. The UN has reported that the hostages have been subject to both rape and torture.
The day was labeled the bloodiest in Israel's history and the deadliest for Jews since the Holocaust. At least 44 countries denounced the attack by Hamas and described it as terrorism. Some have called the attack a genocidal massacre against Israelis.
Response. The United States' response to Al Queda attack on 9/11 was to declare war on Afghanistan, a country. Israeli declared war on on Hamas, a terrorist group, not on Palestine, a country. But Hamas was in Palestine, They had ensconced themselves in tunnels under lands inhabited by Palestinians. So as the Taliban terrorists being in Afghanistan led to the Afghanistan War. Hamas being in Gaza led to Israel invasion of Gaza....though unlike the US declaring war on Afghanistan, Israel did not declare
war on Palestine...only on Hamas who is using Palestine as its base....having dug camps under the streets of Palestinian cities.
However the people of Palestine ARE suffering the consequences of war since Hamas is using the country as a military base.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has repeatedly stated that Israel seeks “total victory” over Hamas, including by destroying Hamas's military and governing capabilities in Gaza and recovering all hostages.
OK. That is a summary what happened. What I do NOT understand is the response of so
many Americans who criticize Israel's response of with war against Hamas in Palestine, when the United States waged war against Afghanistan in response to Taliban attacks on the USA....especially since unlike Hamas, the Taliban took no hostages and neither raped or tortured any American.
Yes, in both wars, civilians have been killed and homes have been destroyed. But how can some say that the US was justified in its war in Afghanistan but Israel is not justified by its war in Palestine?
If anyone, can explain it to me, I would be grateful.
I don't know, because I justify neither. I don't know anyone personally who justifies the US response to 9/11, although I know some do. They're probably the same people who justify everything Israel does.
BTW, do you know that the US is supplying virtually all of Israel's weapons. That that's the major reason for the protests across the United States? (No one is protesting what's happening in Sudan.) In criticizing Israel, we are criticizing our own government's complicity. That complicity may cost Harris the election.
A long time since I have been back to this tread. I have thought about your comments and to be honest I think that if the US and others do nothing to support Israel, that nation (Israel) will be wiped from the global map. ..... Should that happen?
If we look at the history of creating modern Israel, it become clear that the US and others bear real responsibility for the situation of the Palestinians....but I see no move by the US or others that either accepts that responsibility or tries to resolve the situation caused by the creation of modern Israel as a state after WWII.. ,,,, How do we bear responsibility? As you know the US showed little help for the Jews trying to flee Hitler. We simply refused to take Jews who were fleeing the Nazis. eg. a large group of Jews got an ocean worthy ship and sailed to the US seeking asylum, safety. The US would not allow them to land. Rejected they tried elsewhere....I think Cuba but they were also rejected . Being unable to land, the ship returned to Europe and all aboard were sent to detention camps and killed. .......................... If we rejected Jews trying to flee annihilation of course we would not welcome those who survived after the war was over. . Not sure if you recall *I think you are younger than I) But after the war and the opening of the camps, where most inmates were Jews, the question was what to do with these Jews. The European did not want them to come back to their land or businesses. After all when the Jews were removed, Europeans took over those properties and businesses. These new owners did not want to give them back when the war was over. .......... I believe that the US did take about 150,000 but there were around 3.5 million Jewish survivors at the end World War II ( out of a pre-war European Jewish population of approximately 9.5 million). What to do with these Jews? .......
Now Britain controlled Palestine (colonial) and after the war the Brits proposed solution was to give the Jews their own state. " The UN partition plan
On November 29, 1947, the UN voted for Resolution 181, which called for the creation of a Jewish state and an Arab state in the British Mandate of Palestine. The Jewish state was to receive 56% of the land, including the Negev Desert, the Sharon Plain, the Jezreel Valley, and the upper Jordan Valley." Jerusalem, a holy site to many was divided. " Jerusalem was split between Israel and Jordan after the war, with Israel controlling West Jerusalem and Jordan controlling East Jerusalem along with the Old City. .......
"The British Mandate over Palestine was to end and the two new States (one Arab, one Jewish) were to achieve independence on 15 May 1948.
The partition resolution provided for elaborate safeguards for the rights of minorities and for the “existing rights” of various religions in Jerusalem which had been secured during the Ottoman period. Included was the guarantee of free access for persons of all faiths to the holy places located in Jerusalem. These safeguards were required to be given constitutional status by each State.
Although the size of the Jewish State accorded in the partition resolution was smaller than the Zionist Organization had hoped for, the Organization had secured its objective of a Jewish State in Palestine. Hence, the Zionist Organization accepted the partition plan. The Palestinian Arabs and the other Arab countries rejected the resolution as unjust and illegal.
The violence, which had not subsided while the United Nations debated the Palestine issue, now flared up again. The violence intensified when the British forces first prepared to withdraw, and then when they advanced their withdrawal date to 15 May 1948."
Some say that the Jewish people's historical persecution and the Holocaust made it a historic necessity to create a Jewish state. The Jewish leadership reluctantly accepted the plan. .........
The Palestinian Arabs and surrounding Arab states rejected the plan, considering it an international betrayal. The Arabs launched a war of annihilation against the Jewish state. (The Arab-Israeli War of 1948 broke out when five Arab nations invaded territory in the former Palestinian mandate immediately following the announcement of the independence of the state of Israel on May 14, 1948.) .......... The USA. United States supported the creation of Israel in 1948. President Harry S. Truman was the first world leader to officially recognize Israel as a Jewish state on May 14, 1948." Now we knew that Palestinians were living on some of the land but that did not seem to matter. It was decided. .......... Of course we and everyone recognized that several groups viewed Jerusalem as special and no one wanted a fight. So it was decided to divide Jerusalem. "Jerusalem was split between Israel and Jordan after the war, with Israel controlling West Jerusalem and Jordan controlling East Jerusalem along with the Old City." ............ Then "In 1950, Jordan annexed East Jerusalem as part of its larger annexation of the West Bank. Israel occupied East Jerusalem during the 1967 Six-Day War; since then, the entire city has been under Israeli control. In Israel, the reunification of Jerusalem is commemorated as Jerusalem Day, an annual holiday." So that is the history. And when I think about it, it seems that the present issues of Palestinians was created by the UN.....not by Israel. And yes, a lot of water has flowed under the bridge since 1948....The rise of Arab nationalism with the prominence given by the oil economy has changed the politics of the region. Israel, the Jewish state, has become vehement and motivated by 'never again' ,,,,, But it remains " it remains a fact that the UN created Israel...." and it seems to me that in doing so the UN, not Israel, created the current problems, It also seems to me that the UN wants to wash its hands of the problems it created and that many citizens of countries that helped create the problem in the first place now want to wash their hands of responsibility and even blame Israel for the all the current problems. I, for one, do not think it is fair. And I wait for the UN to step up, bring all parties involved together and work out a solution that both acknowledges historical facts and presents an equitable plan for moving forward in peace. Thanks for reading and participating in this dialogue.